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On 21 Dec 1995 mossja@ucbeh.san.uc.edu wrote:

> Re:  Too much B.S. in this newsgroup

I took the Forum in 1991.  I have been an assistant at Landmark for about 
4 years in a variety of capacities.  I have assisted in about 100 
courses, registered almost 100 people, and have had a variety of benefits 
for myself - including but not limited to - Job increases, promotions, 
great relationship with ex-wife, her husband, my parents, and initiating 
projects such as making the internet available to non-technical people.

> OK, ladies and gentlemen:  a lie is a lie even if it is
> repeated often.  An example:
> 
> From: Joe Clarke , Boston College
> Date: 17 Dec 95 12:05:57 EST
> 
> >>Est the Landmark Forum's predecessor was about money.
> Is this fact, or an opinion?

The EST program cost about $600.  It was usually held in hotel banquet 
rooms capable of holding 200 people while they were lying down on the 
floor (one of the excercises which is now done in chairs).  It was held 
over two week-ends.  Instructors had to be flown to the site.  Hotel 
rooms needed to be rented.  Logistics had to be coordinated with hotel 
staff.  In effect, EST was two separate events.  The groups were 
substantially larger, requiring a much stricter discipline.

The current Forum takes 3 days, is usually limited to 125 people, and is 
held at a "site".  In many areas, the site is a large office complex with 
at least 2 large rooms and 3 to 5 smaller rooms.  Stackable chairs, 
carpet, and volunteers keep the logistics costs down.

Each participant requires an average of 20 phone calls (including calls 
to people who decide not to register), often long-distance.  And the 
usual overhead of mailings, billing, and processing are also included.

Finally, the price of the Forum also includes the 10 session seminar.  
Anyone who has paid the heating bill on a 2 story 3 bedroom house can 
appreciate the utility bills.  The average forum room is 80'x80'x19' or
about 128,000 cubic feet - the equivelent of 18 1 bedroom apartments.

In the first 3 years since Landmark was incorporated, it did not turn a 
profit.  In subsequent years, it turned a modest profit.  In the most 
recent reporting year, most of the profit came from work done in 
corporations - where they are paid a contingincy fee (a percentage of the 
increase over estimated earnings).  Landmark is subsidized by licenses to 
excecutive management consulting firms - who train corporate executives 
in this technology at substantially more than $290/person.

> >>Each additional seminar had a price tag attached and of
> course you weren't fully realized until you had taken that next
> workshop.

The first seminar is included as part of the Forum tuition now.  
Subsequent seminars are about $75-95/person.  Taking the same seminar a 
second time is $35-50.  There is actually a slight loss on seminars.
Seminars are led by volunteers and often do not recoup even the basic
real-estate, heating, and phone expenses.

> Did anyone representing est actually ever *say* this or are
> you just sharing what you made up about it?

Landmark reccomends that you take seminars.  It's an opportunity to 
practice what you've learned in the Forum.  Many people (about 20%) start 
their first seminar, drop-out by the 8th week, and complete as satisfied 
customers.  I used to call the "Drop-outs".  Most were people who got 
what they came for, chose to take on projects in areas of their lives 
other than landmark, and would call in every few months to see what was 
available.  Many had promotions or moved to places they had always wanted 
to live "someday".

> >>The Est organiziation was largely run by volunteer recruits
> who were told that they were working out their resistance to giving or
> some such nonsense by donating large amounts of time to the recruiting
> and administration efforts of the organization.
> 
> Did anyone representing est every *say* this, or are you
> just making this up?

Assistants volunteer for a variety of reasons ranging from wanting to get 
a "free sample" of some course, to just wanting to give away some of what 
they have received.  I've known several assistants who volunteered 
because they wanted to meet romance candidates.  If you're over 30, this 
is great place to meet responsible men and women who dress nicely.  You 
even get plenty of time to get to know them personally.  I loved doing 
"outside security" (making sure that people didn't walk into the room 
while having a loud conversation...) because I could meet lots of 
different women, flirt outrageously, and get to know who they were, what 
their goals were, and what they were looking for in a relationship.

One of the primary agreements of assisting is that you must get more out 
of it than you put into it.  Being on a logistics team honed my project 
management skills.  Being on an enrollment phone team honed my sales and 
presentation skills.  Being on a registration team (helping people who 
had registered fill out their forms...) honed my customer support skills.

As an assistant, you learn by confronting breakdowns.  The production 
superviser will ask you to "make 200 copies of this and be back in 5 
minutes".  Then you discover the copier is broken.  You have to 
communicate to your leader, get support from someone who can help you fix 
the copier, and complete the task.  Failure here has much less dire 
consequences than failure on the trading floor or the operating room.

>>>Sound a little cultish?

The definition of "Cult" covers a broad spectrum.  Based on your analogy, 
every major religeon, service club, and 12 step program would also be 
"cultish".  Every group of people will have a culture - a group of 
agreements within which they operate.

> No,it sounds like you made it up.  I know that a person unacquainted
> with LEC or est might actually believe it's the truth, but the things
> you are saying run directly counter to the core values of the organization.
> Just like I know Clinton isn't donating money to Bob Dole's election
> campaign, I know that est or LEC never said that you needed the next
> course to become fully realized, or that you needed to volunteer to work
> out your resistance to giving.  Never, never, never would they say that.

There is one group of people who may occur as "fanatic".  The enrollment 
assistants who sit in on the introductions and make follow-up calls to 
people who have been to an introduction.  These are people who are so 
excited about what they have gotton out of the Forum that they want to 
become leaders in the work.  The first step is becoming an enrollment 
assistant.

The enrollment assistant is actually only there to help you fill out your 
paperwork if you want to register, and answer questions about things like 
hours, times, dates, and payment schedules.  Unfortunately, they also 
want you to register (for them, the forum is the greatest thing since 
sex).  Having been one of those enrollment assistants and having upset a 
guest by trying to "sell them" on the course, I can tell you that it is 
NOT approved by the organization.  Enrollment assistants who upset guests 
are gradually weeded out, encouraged to serve in other ways.  It takes 
about 3 years to train a seminar leader, about 7 years to train a forum 
leader.  Along the way, you are encouraged to enroll people, but you are 
not supposed to "recruit" them or "sell" them.

The Forum consists of two basic concepts - "insights" and "actions".  
There are many different insights or distinctions introduced during the 
forum, some will be very familiar, some will be strange.  Participants 
are encouraged to take appropriate actions during the course.  That 
appropriate action might include calling a parent or ex-spouse and
making amends in a way so powerful that what is often left is love and 
effinity for someone who an hour earlier resented and regretted.

People are encouraged to make these kinds of amends on a regular basis.  
It's called "Sharing the Forum".  Imagine your reaction when you get a 
phone call from someone who read you the riot act 3 months ago and hasn't 
spoken to you since when they call you at midnight to tell you they love 
you, that they've been a jerk, and that they want to thank you for all 
the wonderful things you've done for them.  Wouldn't you be a bit curious?

> What people might have said about other courses is that they were
> really *valuable*, that they might make a difference for you.  If you
> added that other stuff about not being fully realized if you didn't do
> them, well, welcome to the human race.  We all add stuff all the time,
> but that doesn't mean that est or LEC said, thought, or implied all that stuff. 
> Never in a million years.

Sometimes, in the zest to share the Forum with others, Forum graduates 
often start "being right" about the Forum.  That's one of the things they 
try to teach you not to do in the seminars.  If you bring a guest, and 
the guest doesn't register, you are encouraged not to make them wrong.  
Once in a while, a graduate doesn't get that feedback and starts trying 
to pressure the other person into taking the course.  The leaders really 
don't want graduates to do that, but it does happen.

I wrote a FAQ posting on the Forum about 9 months ago, has anybody seen 
it recently?

	Rex Ballard
	Standard & Poor's/McGraw-Hill
	Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect
	the Management of the McGraw-Hill Companies.



From rballard@cnj.digex.net Tue Dec 26 22:21:37 1995
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Newsgroups: alt.self-improve,sci.psychology.misc